A lot has been made about Scotland’s early exit from the Rugby World Cup under a cloud of anger about the way referee Craig Joubert refereed the match… specially that last penalty, which when converted ultimately sunk a very, very brave and deserving Scotland.
We raked the web for an article which takes all the emotion and anger out of the equation and gives probably the best clinical and sensible discussion on the matter.
At the time the game was played, I thought the penalty was justly awarded, whereas many thought it was’nt the case!
Well, let’s first off say, that last penalty and everything around it happened so quickly, that anybody who can now unequivocally say that they saw everything clear as day at the time it happened, is bullshitting everybody. Of course now all of us have had the luxury of hindsight and have had repeated and even more repeated replays of that insident at hand… and still the judgment call is not easy.
But, I digress… let’s have a look at the ARTICLE I dug up… Paul Dobson the Author…
Then after that, have a good look at World Rugby’s Statement on the Match official’s performance review (Australia vs Scotland), it is right at the end of the article!
Paul Dobson looks at the most contentious decision of the 2015 World Cup.
After a controversy-free 2015 World Cup, we have returned to refereeing controversy – following the match between Australia and Scotland.
It follows the 21st century trend – England’s anger in 2003 when André Watson penalised their scrummaging, Wayne Barnes missed a forward pass that contributed to France’s victory over New Zealand in 2007 and the 2011 anger at Bryce Lawrence for what was seen as his tolerance of Australian shenanigans at the tackle.
Now we have the 79th minute penalty against Scotland for offside that enabled Australia to win 35 / 34.
The Scottish anger this time is as furious and passionate as it was in 2003, 2007 and 2011.
But let’s look at the incident and the law.
Australia are penalised and Scotland throw into a lineout. They throw deep and Dave Denton just manages to get a hand to the ball, knocking it to his side untidily. Players from each side make for the ball, among them Josh Strauss and John Hardie of Scotland and Nick Phipps and Greg Holmes of Australia. In the turmoil Hardie is closest to the ball and then Phipps. The ball strikes Strauss on the shoulder and travels quickly to Jon Welsh of Scotland, who plays the ball just in front of Scott Fardy.
The referee penalises Jon Welsh for being offside.
The decision caused an outburst of booing in gracious Twickenham.
Bernard Foley goaled the penalty and Australia knocked Scotland out of the 2015 World Cup, causing a spate of European anger. All 4 of the semifinalists are from the Southern Hemisphere.
Those are sideshows. Let us return to our muttons, as the French say, and look to the laws of the game.
First of all, we are not dealing with a knock-on as the ball hits Strauss’s shoulder. This is a straight forward case of offside.
Law 12 DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball-line.
Law 11 DEFINITIONS
In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball. Offside means that a player is temporarily out of the game. Such players are liable to be penalised if they take part in the game.
Strauss played the ball. Welsh, who was in front of Strauss played the ball.
Definition
Played: the ball is played when it is touched by a player.
Welsh touched the ball.
But what if the ball had touched Phipps?
Law 11.3 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY OPPONENTS
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.
(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.
(b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.
(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.
- If Phipps touched the ball intentionally, Welsh was onside.
- But what if the ball had touched Phipps unintentionally? Then Welsh was offside.
- What if Phipps had touched the ball in trying to grab it? Welsh was onside.
- What if Phipps had not touched the ball in trying to grab it? Welsh was offside.
It is that complicated and it happened at speed, here and there.
Those people booing from the stand could simply not have been able to judge the situation. They were booing only because Scotland were penalised.
Later people had a chance to watch repeated slow-motion recordings of the incident, which the referee did not have.
There were queries as to why the referee did not refer the incident to the TMO.
The simple reply to that is that he was not allowed to by the protocol that applied in the Rugby World Cup. If he had have been refereeing in South Africa, he could have referred it as the TMO protocol is broader in South Africa.
But what about the TMO’s input that led to the Yellow Card for Sean Maitland?
The Rugby World Cup allows for the TMO to have a say in the matter of foul play, a deliberate infringement which is an aspect of foul play and a possible infringement on the way to scoring a try.
Law 10.2 UNFAIR PLAY
(a) Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send-off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.
Sanction: Penalty kick
And what about the cancelling of Adam Ashley-Cooper’s try because of Will Genia’s prior knock-on.
From a lineout the Wallabies attacked the Scottish line. Drew Mitchell was tackled about a metre short and Genia got the ball behind the tackle and threw a long pass to Foley who passed to Kurtley Beale who gave to Ashley-Cooper who dived over in the right corner.
The referee immediately referred the matter to the TMO and it was clear that Genia had knocked on in receiving the ball.
By the protocol for the Rugby World Cup, he was allowed to do that because a potential try had been scored.
Also, earlier in the match the referee had awarded a scrum to Australia when the ball made with a player in an offside position.
It was not the same situation as the last penalty we referred to above.
Dave Denton raced down the left touchline and then passed infield to Stuart Hogg who gave a no-look pass over his shoulder. It fell to ground and was picked up by Michael Hooper who gave it to Kurtley Beal who gave it to Ashley-Cooper who kicked a low one, which struck WP Nel on the foot and the ball went straight to Finn Russell who was in front of Nel and facing him. Russell seemed to try to gather the ball.
The referee ruled an accidental offside, which mostly makes sense in such cases.
It’s horrible when a player gives away 3 points for a minor infringement.
What one can say is that decisions should be based on the clear and obvious.
The John Welsh case was clearly not clear and obvious.
Back to our opinions here on Rugby-Talk.com: Satisfied with the Explanation… or is it still as clear as mud?
I’ll let you decide on it!
My opininon… during the game and now… Craig called it as he saw it, and it’s a pity he is castigated about it!
World Rugby Statement: Match officials’ performance review (Australia vs Scotland)
Overall, it is widely recognised that the standard of officiating at Rugby World Cup 2015 has been very high across 44 compelling and competitive matches to date.
World Rugby High Performance Match Official Manager Joël Jutge said: “Despite this experience, Craig has been and remains a world-class referee and an important member of our team.”
All match official performances are thoroughly reviewed and assessed by the World Rugby Match Official Selection Committee comprising John Jeffrey (Chairman), Lyndon Bray (SANZAR), Andrew Cole (SANZAR), Donal Courtney (EPCR), Clayton Thomas (Six Nations) and World Rugby High Performance Match Official Manager Joël Jutge.
Appointments for the semi-final stage of the competition will be announced in due course.
Nie ‘n maklike tyd vir NZ by die WB nie, hulle nou die ene senuwees.
Moet die Bokke klop en nou is daar ‘n goeie kans dat hul eie WC ref nie vir hul die final gaan kan blaas nie, maar nie dat hul hom eintlik nodig het nie! 😀
Oor Dobson se artikel, goeie insigte.
Die reëls oor tmo moet verander, as enige moontlike punte op die spel is, hetsy drie of strafskop, moet die tmo gebruik word. In krieket en tennis het spelers/spanne reviews, hoekom nie ook vir rugby nie?
Gee vir elke span x2 reviews per helfte?
Ons soek liewers langer games, waar meer reffoute uitgeskakel word, as games waar ‘n span skade lei, en ‘n ref wat dit goed bedoel het, tog ‘n baie groot blaps maak wat sy loopbaan erg knou… asook die AB se kans im die WB vir die 3de keer te wen.
Dobson boo die skare, oor hul CJ geboo het?
Maar edelagbare, wat het die saak met die skare te doen?
Die vraag wat beantwoord moet word, is dat as dit vir die Skotse spelers so duidelik was daar by en in die scene of the crime in real time, dat HULLE baie duidelik kon sien SONDER dat hul kamera angles nodig het na die tyd, dat Pipps die bal gespeel het en toe eers Welsh, en dit dus nie ‘n strafskop is nie,
ontstaan die netelige vraag hoekom kon CJ wat ook daar was, dit nie ook raaksien nie, dit was nie asof dit 30 meter weg was nie?
En, as dinge vir hom te vinnig gebeur het, en hy dadelik ‘n besluut MOES geneem het, hoekom die voordeel van die twyfel aan Aussies gee en nie Skotte nie?
Het hy dalk foutvinderig gesoek na ‘n moontlike foutjie, trigger of fluitjie happy gewees?
Ons sal nie weet nie, en die feit dat hy met so groot spoed verdwyn het na die eindfluitjie, en dit laat net nog meer vrae ontstaan oor die hele petalje, ongelukkig.
Wat Pipps se beweegrede was by die scene of the crime, was nie om piekniek te hou of blad te skud nie.
Dit is mos klinklaar duidelik, soos met enige ander speler in daardie situasies, om die bal by die opponente te kry. Sy doel was nie om Strauss of Welsh of enige ander Skot te gaan soen nie?
Jammer vir die Skotte, en geluk aan die Aussies wat gewen het, hoe ookal, die lewe is nie altyd fair nie, ons moet dit hanteer soos dit kom.
Dit beteken egter nie ons ontken of ignoreer as iets plaasgevind het wat nie eintlik moes plaasgevind het nie.
Hopelik kan die reëls in die toekoms nog meer verander met die wonder van tegnologie, om sulke situasies vir spanne, ondersteuners en veral refs beter te maak.
Iemand het laat weet hulle het CJ opgespoor… hy trek nou by Zaire…
😉
Almal van ons maak foute, en sal nog maak, maar dit beteken nie ons moet maak asof daar nie ‘n groot fout was nie, ons moet ook wat ons geliefde game betref,nie moed opgee met Audi nie: the quest for zero defect!
Dis my mening.
Ek heb gezegt, lekker slaap!
Innie kuk is ons, Paddas oppie veld en langs die lyn !!
Refs confirmed for RWC semi-finals
Sport24 22:11 19/10/2015
Cape Town – The Rugby World Cup semi-final between the Springboks and the All Blacks will see Frenchman Jérôme Garcès in charge of proceedings.
Garcès will be assisted by fellow Frenchman Romain Poite as well as Ireland’s John Lacey,while TMO duties will be handled by George Ayoub of Australia. The first semi-final will be played at Twickenham and will kick-off at 17:00 on Saturday (SA time).
The second semi-final between the Wallabies and the Pumas will be officiated by Wayne Barnes of England.
Barnes will be assisted by South Africa’s Jaco Peyper and Ireland’s George Clancy, while TMO duties will be handled by Ben Skeen of New Zealand. The second semi-final will be played at Twickenham and will kick-off at 18:00 on Sunday (SA time).
– Sport24
Pietman that is the worst combination of officials any springbok fan could ever hope for.
Two frenchies and that bandit ayoub.
Who did we piss off at the irb?
As Willie nie kan speel….
12 – Jan Serfontein
13 – De Allende
15 – Kriel
Bench: Lambie
shooter wrote:
I usually like Willie in the team when he hits the 10 channel and changes things a bit, but with Schalk doing that and more, maybe Lambie would be the safer bet at 15 than Kriel or Willie.
@Macro. Verseker. Willie is a machine. just sounds as he may be an injury worry.
Agree he makes huge difference at 10 especially.
Kriel would be more attacking, better counter attack especially.
Possibly even better defence.
He was huge at the Bulls in 15.
If a centre is injured, they can do a whole shuffle back to 15- 13 etc.
Lambie may be safe. But will we even be in a position to be safe if the AB’s get going.
The positive approach would be Kriel.
Good article. Shows how complicated it was. I watched the incident probably 10 x in slow motion and still feel uncertain on what exactly happened.
I feel sorry for the Scotts but in the final analysis they have only themselves to blame. They created the situation with two bad decisions. One, you just don’t throw the back to the No5 lock in that circumstances (3 minutes to go and 10 meters from your goal line). Second, deflecting the back in that situation is just not on.
You catch the back with both hands and ruck it up for the rest of the game. What were they thinking?
McLook wrote:
Should be ball not back. Damn spelcheck.
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