Having had a disturbed night’s sleep, and having blasted Romain Poite and his co-match officials here on Rugby-Talk, during and after the Rugby Championship match yesterday, it is fitting to have a look at what rugby analists, the rugby media here and abroad (including those from New Zealand), have to say.
Firstly, let’s look at the SuperSport media panel who sat during and after the match, with Nick Mallett (fromer Springbok coach) and John Mitchell (former All Blacks coach) the key ingredients here, augmented by Naas Botha (Former Springbok Captain) and Ashwin Willemse (former Springbok wing).
Both Mitchell and Mallett slammed referee Poite, point blank, so too Naas Botha and Ashwin Willemse.
Here’s a video exerpt of what these fine gentlemen had to say:
[youtube]http://youtu.be/LkptdOWWVIU[/youtube]
Similar lines of thoughts were forthcoming from the studio guests analising the match for the viewing public in Europe and in New Zealand.
Let’s have a look at the incident itself:
[youtube]http://youtu.be/hm0HbjO01U8[/youtube]
Now what do the esteemed journalists, rugby scribes and players accross the world have to say about this?
Let’s start with South african scribes:
JON CARDINELLI (SARUGBYMAG.CO.ZA)
‘Poite’s decision was based on an overwhelming reaction from the partisan New Zealanders in the stands. The crowd wanted Du Plessis off, and Poite obliged. It was gutless, and one would think that Poite will have a lot to answer for when fronting his bosses next week.’
ZELIM NEL (INDEPENDENT GROUP – SA)
‘The French referee allowed the crowd of 48,000 – and millions of TV viewers – to witness an even contest for just 32 minutes at Eden Park before reducing the crunch Rugby Championship Test to a sham … Carter was buried in a tackle that was not only legal, but of rare, premium quality. The partisan crowd blew up in unfiltered outrage and convinced Poite to ignore repeated slow motion replays on the big screen that clearly showed the behemoth hooker had delivered a legal hit.’
GAVIN RICH (WEEKEND ARGUS – SA)
‘Referees these days appear to be far too quick to brandish cards, and they’re having a massive impact on results … No doubt rabid All Blacks supporters will be happy about what happened, but most sensible people from both sides will probably feel like I do – cheated. The All Blacks celebrations were surely rendered hollow by the knowledge that they were playing 15 against 14 for more than half the match, and if they watch the replay of the first Du Plessis incident, which the referee had a chance to do on the big screen, then they will know that he was sent off for a hard but textbook tackle.’
LOUIS DE VILLIERS (RAPPORT – SA)
‘Pwat. Só spreek jy Romain Poite se naam uit; daai klank wat ’n skeidsregter se bakkies seker sou gee as jy ’n dwarsklap teen sy smoel plant. ’Skies, dis ongeskik. Maar dié Franse ploert se fluitjie was die uitstaande kenmerk van gister se Toets in Auckland tussen Nieu-Seeland en Suid-Afrika om die Rugby-kampioenskap, ene wat die tuisspan met 29-15 gewen het.’
CRAIG RAY (SUNDAY TIMES – SA)
‘Actions have consequences and that decision [to give Du Plessis his first yellow card] had awful ramifications for the Boks later on. Poite’s sub-standard officiating will also have ramifications for the rest of the tournament as the Boks are now four points behind the All Blacks in the Rugby Championship standings. But it will almost certainly have no consequences for Poite’s refereeing career.’
DAN RETIEF (CITY PRESS – SA)
‘Poite’s shocking rulings, especially in the first half, robbed the Boks of the massive presence of their hooker Bismarck du Plessis for 48 minutes of the match and completely spoiled what might have been a spectacle.’
RUDI GELDENHUYS (RUGBY-TALK.COM – SA)
The result of the game remains a contrived result, with match officials clearly at fault and to blame. I do not say New Zealand, it’s rugby fraternity or supporters are complicit.
The result is a flawed one, that much is clear! A flawed result which stays etched in rugby history for ever, it is there, it is recorded, despite the fact that it is wrong and unjust!
I do not have to condone, respect or recognise such a blatent blight.
I watched the whole match again, I watched the replays of the incidents and I still cringe at the ineptness of not only the referee (as main culprit), but the lack of clear direction from the TMO and other match officials.
A travesty is what we witnessed! To condone it would be wrong.
Now over to what the New Zealand scribes had to say:
LIAM NAPIER (FAIRFAX MEDIA – NZ)
‘The performance of French referee Romain Poite robbed the contest of its superstar status … Fed on a diet of spinach-flavoured biltong, Du Plessis is Popeye in disguise. Naturally, when Carter received a hospital pass and the big Boks rake simultaneously, he crumbled into a heap and slinked from the field with an AC shoulder injury that will keep him out of action for four to six weeks. The subsequent decision to sin-bin du Plessis, though, was a shocker. It was a legal tackle. Arms were used. Sense should have prevailed.’
WYNNE GREY (NEW ZEALAND HERALD)
‘The red card had a massive effect on the game. Adding to the significance of it all, Bismarck du Plessis was having an absolute stormer. There seemed to be two of him – he was all over the park but especially good in the tight stuff, winning a couple of crucial turnovers with his strength and timing. And he scored the Boks’ first try.’
MARK HINTON (SUNDAY STAR-TIMES – NZ)
He described Poite’s decision to dismiss du Plessis as “farcical” and said it tilted the match in the All Blacks’ favour.
“The hooker’s shoulder-charge on Carter looked dodgy, but replays showed the hit was legit and that referee Romain Poite had over-reacted big time,”
DAVID LONG (FAIRFAX MEDIA – (NZ)
The first yellow card “was an extremely harsh call on the Sharks No 2, as his tackle on Dan Carter was perfectly timed and legal”.
Former All Blacks captain Sean Fitzpatrick, in his Herald on Sunday column, said he also felt the tackle on Carter was legitimate.
He questioned why “a referee can have that much influence on a game with so much (video) technology available” to review the incident.
GREGOR PAUL (Herald on Sunday – NZ)
Carter was “fair game” and du Plessis had been onside, but he felt that the South African had deserved a red card for the second offence alone, when he rammed his elbow into the throat of Liam Messam.
“The first offence was not a yellow, although what Bismarck du Plessis did with his head looked bad. But the second offence was a straight red. Seriously bad.”
PATRICK McKENDRY (APZN – NZ)
How much effect did the red card have on the outcome?
A massive one. Adding to the significance of it all, Bismarck du Plessis was having an absolute stormer. There seemed to be two of him – he was all over the park but especially good in the tight stuff, winning a couple of crucial turnovers with his strength and timing. Scored the Boks’ first try.
Was the red card justified?
No, because his tackle on Dan Carter was legal. The spotlight for the decison to sin bin him must fall on referee Romain Poite, who appeared to dismiss the advice of his TMO George Ayoub. However, once back on the field, de Plessis should have reigned himself in a little. The elbow to the windpipe of Liam Messam wasn’t a good look.
What Rugby Players had to say:
DAN CARTER (TWITTER – NZ)
Nothing wrong with the tackle. Fell awkwardly and popped my AC joint #gutted #smashedembro.
FORMER ALL BLACKS CAPTAIN TAINE RANDELL (NZ)
Fans have been robbed of the crunch game of the year.
Writing in his column for Fairfax Media, Randell said: ‘Romain Poite’s officiating ruined last night’s Test between the All Blacks and the Springboks, a game between the world’s two best sides.
‘I am so disappointed with the way a number of controversial decisions, which still don’t make any sense to me, dictated the game.
‘Bismarck du Plessis’s yellow card for a legitimate tackle on Dan Carter was totally unfair, his second yellow which led to red was also marginal and as a fan I’ve not been able to watch the best of what we’ve got, against the best of South Africa.
‘Last night’s game was not decided on equal measure and at this level of the game, that is not acceptable.’
Leaves a totally rotten taste in the mouth, does’nt it?
I’m a bit calmer today and can blog again. Watched the 2009 super rugby final again and feeling much better after this. My take on this issue:
This one little human error by Poite has far reaching effects and a plain acknowledgement of error is not enough. They are just telling something we already know. Now if I make the same kind of human error in my proffesion, I get sued. There is huge implications and me and my company do everything in our power to rectify the problem. Thats why, when i’m not sure about something, I hire consultants, I get other proffesionals in my field to vet my designs. I make tripple sure that my designs are correct. So why don’t refs do this.
The first yellow card should have been reviewed by the TMO and the assistand refs. Well, all cards should actually be reviewed by the assistant refs and TMO. The IRB much also make sure that all refs must be able to speak and understand english.
I really looked forward to this game, but switched of the tv after the red card, game over, championship over.
Spieeltjie spieeltjie in my hand, waar gaan die Poitjie beland.
Aan die einde van sy pad.
Geen span kan hom ooit weer vertrou nie. Sefs nie eens mede skeidsregters nie. Ook kan jy jouself hang deur ‘n menslike fout.
@ dWeePer:
Good riddens of …..rubish
RIP
Really can’t be a human error when he had the big screen to look at over and over. How can anyone get that wrong?
They should do the right thing and replay the game. Now that would be fair, as all we ever wanted was a fair contest.
If we lost playing 15 men against 15 men we would have accepted it. But we really can’t accept the way we lost. NO team in international rugby can play at this level with 14 men against 15 men for 50min. They might have 10 years ago but not any longer. The game is just far too tough. You need all your men on the field to play a even contest.
I do thoroughly enjoy Mallett in the studio. He is brutally honest and think that is all we want to hear. None of this keeping quite stuff, we want to hear what should be said.
So well done Mallett. Keep up the good work.
quite = quiet
Looking again at that video when the huge brawl started. The ref saying to Jean he was going to give a yellow card for no arms. Just looking at it again here and you clearly see Bissie tackling Carter WITH BOTH ARMS. Man it gets me angry again. Why did this fool ref not look up at the big screen and see he was wrong?
The game was ruined by this useless ref and should be played over. Let us play it on neutral grounds on the eoyt when we both touring Britain. Why not? We should do it. Play the game at Twickenham. It would be full house with saffa and AB supporters there.
The ref had a k@k game and ruined it as the spectacle it was supposed to be. He wasn’t the first and he sure won’t be the last.
We just don’t get a fair contest in NZ. This has been going on since 1956. In 2010 we played both matches in NZ with 14 men due to dubious yellow cards.
Personally, I will not watch a Springbok/AB game played in NZ again. I’ll take my kids to the movies but what is the use of watching something that you know you are going to loose due to being cheated.
I agree with Puma, the game should be replayed. SARU has to give NZRU an ultimatum. We replay the game on neutral grounds or no more games between SA and the AB’s in New Zealand. i don’t think any SA supporter will object. Why go and play in NZ if you know you are going to be forced into an unfair contest. Also no more yellow cards (except maybe for tip tackles) in AB/SA matches or we don’t play games against them anymore. For tip tackle yellows we want a serious look at it before a decision is being made and both captains -on the field- has to agree that it is a fair decision. If no agreement then a white card so that the incident can be reviewed afterwards.
This match was the dissapointment of the year; it was a disgrace. I am still so angry I don’t want to talk to any kiwi about it.
From FB Petition to stop Romain Poite…..
“The Tmo did look at it and stated that the tackle was fair but that he the ref can continue with his decision.he did not listen and out came the yellow card.wtf is he deaf”
What if the ref listened to the TMO?
A penalty would have been awarded to SA for the retaliaton by Nonu
A scrum would have been called and even if the put in was to NZ we had a good chance to win it, highly motivated at that stage.
But instead the penalty kick was great and they restarted deep in SA teritory. The crowd was willing them on and still booing SA. The total scenario took us out for a few minutes, it was more crucial than just losing our star player.
Think about the mindsets of the 2 teams in the “next minutes”
Puma, if it wasn’t human error on Poite’s part, what was it – deliberate cheating by the ref?
So, a ref who knows that millions plus his employers are watching will deliberately favour one side then?
Why?
It is only fair that Poite should be the ref officiating at the return match at Coca Cola Park. Is Pieter van Zyl allowed back in the Stadium yet?
GBS, Thanks for uploading the game – unfortunately my drop box isn’t big enough, so I can’t watch it – you cant cut it in 2 can you?
As to Poite’s command of the game, there has been an interesting build up to this decision. I have, as have many others, made a point of keeping quiet with regard to the increase of poor refereeing and refereeing decisions other the last year or two. There has been a steady build up, where in every game, the comments – on this site, too – have been increasing and becoming more and more forthright, to a point where it is now mentioned in almost every match. It got to the point where it seemed that something was going happen, and I think this was it.
For too long the IRB have used the ‘just human’ excuse, and one can understand that it is done so that blame cannot be apportioned to them or the ref. They have then gone on to, ‘supposedly’, sanction concerned individuals afterwards.
This clearly is not working. The IRB has changed the rules regarding the on-field replay for the refs to help with foul play incidents, and to use the ‘human judgement error’ excuse is, in this case, probably more of a travesty than the incident itself. In my mind, it makes that IRB as accountable as Poite.
This excuse, simply, cannot be allowed to continue, and someone needs to become accountable. How I would love to see a wealthy, DSTV fee paying rugby supporter sue both the IRB and Poite over this incident. I think that there would be enough in the rule books, and video evidence to have a case for the ‘human judgement error’ to be contested. Even if the case was lost, just imagine the result of the publicity!
As to the next game, one can only hope that not only is Pieter allowed back as a spectator, but that he has decided to hold the Van Zyl family tree reunion (dating back to Jan Van Zyl – May 6, 1768) at the match too.
11 @ fender:
If it was not deliberate it was gross ineptness… at least. Could add a number of expletives, of course!
The Bismarck incident 1 and 2 were not his only mistakes, not by a very long margin either!
12 @ Just For Kicks:
Koos Basson of SARU suffered a heart attack, watching this travesty on Saturday and passed away as a result.
Dare I say that Poite, the IRB, SANZAR and the other match officials would have something to answer to if a law suit was instigated by the loved ones of Koos Basson!
I will re-sample the match, then upload it again for you.
Ok, now what’s next, since Bissie has been cleared and red card erased,ref was lambasted by all and sundry in the media, IRB apologised, and SARU is taking the matter further (dunno whereto)?
How do we erase the match as a whole and have a replay in Hong Kong or London?
15 @ Pietman:
SARU would have to gun for that to happen, and they won’t
@ grootblousmile:
In that case all the apologies and findings came to nothing, we still sit with a no-contest that was unfairly adjudicated by means of which the ABs were moved to the top of the log to our detriment.
You’re the lawyer, what remedies are there legally in such situation? What if we withdrew from this competition, for instance?
@ grootblousmile:
I will check in again tonite bru, office is calling.
The first yellow card was indeed a human error
Poite was bent double under human pressure.
It will take all the kings men and all his horses the next month to straighten Poite again.
just watched the incident again … dont know who i’m more angry with. the ref of the tmo who told him (after clearly seeing that the tackle was legal) that he (the ref) could penalise the players for
1. high tackle
and
2. not using his arms
just bloody ridiculous officiating!!
@ Ashley:
To be fair Ash, the TMO was not at fault. The ref told him that he was going to go with the illegal tackle and ONLY asked him to check for any incidents during the brawl afterwards. By the current rules, the TMO can only report on what the ref asks him – he cannot check on things on which the ref has already decided. So to repeat, in this case the ref had already decided to punish Bissie and did not want to see it again. He wanted to know about what happened AFTER the tackle. Poite was grossly incompetent – he had other options open to him. He could have asked the TMO to look at it or he could have asked the TMO to put it on the big screen and he could have looked at it himself again. Instead he just went with his first gut reaction and refused to use the options open to him to confirm. A typical, arrogant, self-righteous doos who was duped and influenced by the crowd reaction.
Ouens, I know that we are very upset but really we need to get a grip (or a Grippon) here.
There will be no lawsuits against rhe IRB, SANZAR or the guy who sold Poite his first whistle simply because an error free display by any party on a sportsfield is not a reasonable expectation.
@ fender:
Have to echo your sentiments, mate. It was bad refereeing without doubt but insulting whole nations and conspiracy theories are not helping. Puma already warned us long before this match that Poite was an incompetent referee. We should be rightfully upset and express our displeasure but keep it to the ref and work to have him never blow again or at least never against SA. Also try to have the rules improved whereby the ref is obliged to review for any card or give the TMO the power to advise him if his decision is wrong or some other of the good recommendations that people have made.
This match will never be played over or the result changed. Doing so would open a can of worms of impossible proportions to contain – leading to no team ever accepting an unfavourable result on the field. Every match would end up being contentious and having to be replayed and replayed.
However bitter it is, we have to look ahead and make sure that this and other refs pay the price for bad decisions so that there will be less of them in the future.
@22 @23 – I have to agree now. I gave a lot of flack during the game. The ref is primarily to blame. In fact all of the officiating staff. But whats done is done.
Shot YT!
I think the Boks have set a good example for us all. Review inwards to go pward.
HM and JDV derserve and are receiving kudos for taking it on the chin. If its any consolation, I doubt whether Poite will ever ref a Bok game again much like whatsisname who reffed our WC QF 2011 against the Wobblies.
22 @ fender:
23 @ The_Young_Turk:
There will be no law suits regarding the match results… I agree.
SARU also has far too small balls to make enough noise about the unjust result and the result will stand, forever etched in memory.
Must say, you guys sound almost apologetic about the referee’s gross incompetence and numerous mistakes, as if it’s a minor glitch, which it is’nt.
The decision(s) had a direct bearing on the final result (playing with 14 men for 48 minutes is incredulous), and even if New Zealand had won fair and square, the bonus point on their side and / or the lack of a Springbok bonus point is also at stake and in contention here, materially affecting the overall Log.
Tell me straight, do you want folks to sit idly by and accept this misrepresentation of justice and unfair result?
The world needs to vent their anger at this, partly to show the unjustness of the actions and result, but even more importantly to prevent it from ever happening again.
It remains a travesty, for ever!
26 @ grootblousmile:
I’ve deliberately not commented thus far, because it all seemed almost inevitable.
What I fail to understand is that for months on end now, after every weekend of Rugby we seem to be discussing the officials and their competence, or lack thereof, and not the actual games.
This is not just at international level, but was a phenomenon throughout Super Rugby, and also currently in the Currie Cup.
The only game I didn’t really watch this weekend was the Aus – Pumas, and everyone that I watched had contensious issues around the ref’s decisions, and the use / non use of the TMO.
It seems almost as if the attempts by the IRB to use technology moe is having an adverse effect on the sport.
Almost to a man in the CC this weekend, the ref’s seemed almost scared to make a decision without first looking at it on the “big screen”.
Even a top ref’ like Jaco Peyper was reluctant to award a try that seemed good from the moment it was scored.
It’s time for Rugby to get their house in order.
All of this does nothing for theimage of the game as a would be international sporting power.
I have a family member who now point blank refuses to watch ANY Rugby because the ref’s are “Fukcing up a good sport”.
As for SARU, well I think everyone on RT knows my standpoint in respect their abiliy / willingness to do anything constructive, and when I see Mark Alexander of all people making comments I just shudder.
That perticular “gentleman” has been labelled a “serial sports administrator”, by a National Rugby Union President of another african country who stated to me that if he (Mr Alexander) said “good morning” to ou, you better go outside and check that a) it’s morning, and b) it’s still good. IE, he does not have a great reputation.
Maybe he’s just trying to step in for Messrs Hoskins and Roux who no doubt are trying to spend their “heard earned” bonuses and increases garnered from the somewhat depleted SARU profit pot, and are therefore otherwise indisposed.
Anyway enough of the sidetrack.
SORT THIS K@K OUT IRB.
We need to have Rugby’s image shining brightly. It’s been dulled and tarnished since the 2011 RWC quarter finals, an the ongoing bumbling does nothing to restore the shine.
Apologetic Gbs- wat djy wa kry? Miskien moet ma weer my posts gan lees.. Maybe with so many hot heads and hot air around it would appear that those with cooler heads are out of step? Gee, maybe even unpatriotic?
Of course law suits are not going to happen – I was making a simple point – But, what is the point of having the big screen if you are not going to use it, when its there to help limit the ‘reasonably expected errors’?
Whilst I am not a fan of Stuart Barnes, I think this is a very good article from an independent source.
Skysports
I felt bruised just watching the New Zealand versus South Africa clash from my living room in Wiltshire.
It was one of those games. Powerful and pulsating throughout, this could have been one of the most memorable internationals of recent years.
Unfortunately déjà vu struck and for all the excellence of so much of New Zealand’s game, it will be remembered – certainly in South Africa – for yet another refereeing display where the key decisions again broke the way of the All Blacks.
Australia were on the wrong end of some atrocious refereeing a few weeks ago in Wellington and the Springboks found their more realistic hopes of a first win in Auckland since 1937, undone by Romain Poite.
The Frenchman is one of my favourite referees, but like the majority of his colleagues who blow down south, somehow the whistle always goes New Zealand’s way.
Maybe it is time for All Blacks fans and coaches to forget about 2007 and Wayne Barnes; time to accept that the wheel has turned full circle in their favour.
Bismarck Du Plessis was yellow carded for a beautifully timed tackle that took Dan Carter out of the game. It was neither a shoulder charge, like Ma’a Nonu’s dangerous late hit on Jean de Villiers later in the game, nor was it high. It appears he was sin binned for having the temerity to flatten the great fly half.
In the second half Du Plessis was yellow carded for dangerous play with a forearm that was high – this would be given as yellow card in possibly one in five games. Two yellows make a red and the game was all but over with the Springboks trailing by just seven at the time.
The breaks going the way of New Zealand are becoming too familiar a pattern in New Zealand. They are the world’s leading team and the best benefit from sympathetic officiating in all sports but this pattern is disturbing.
Justin Marshall, a distinguished All Black, was struggling for words when Jannie Du Plessis was penalised for what Marshall saw as a decision of pure pedantry but minutes earlier, when Ruan Pienaar rightly charged a free kick as Beauden Barritt advanced forward, the referee simply sent the South African backwards when the scrum half was within his rights to play the man and ball.
Every small decision seems to be interpreted New Zealand’s way. Even when the All Blacks suffered two indisputable yellow cards in the last 10 minutes when the game was won the referee took their side. Nonu went for the aforementioned late charge, but Conrad Smith escaped a cynical hand in the ruck metres from the line.
It was pure yellow and de Villers quizzed the French referee as to whether Smith too should be sin binned. Poite disregarded him when the New Zealanders should have been down to 12 men for the misdemeanours. But that was a correct decision too far for the Frenchman.
It is difficult to beat New Zealand anywhere and anytime, let alone in New Zealand, but when the referees are subconsciously leaning their way it becomes all but impossible. South Africa, with some even breaks, fifteen men and the Johannesburg altitude will believe they can turn this result around. They will take the field believing they were hard done-by in Auckland which is going to make this match something else.Fire and fury in Auckland, but in Perth the affair was altogether lower key. The match was damp, tight but nothing memorable – with a far from packed Perth house a concern for the Australian union.
The sport lacks powerhouse national teams and, whilst many who have suffered at the hands of Australian sporting excellence in the past may gloat at their current travails, the sooner the Wallabies are competing with the best the better. Union is fragile in the land of league; victories in style are needed and fast if Australia is not to fall from their perch at the top of the game where they have been throughout the professional era.
Rugby needs more not less competitive teams if it is to continue to grow as a global sport. That is a lesson to be learned and reiterated in both hemispheres in these troubled times.
@ grootblousmile:
Smiles mate, I realise you’re mightily pissed off. But just bear in mind mate that you’re not the only one that live and breathe the Boks. My passion for the green and gold runs deep since from my earliest memories. Living overseas, in a foreign country, just make me cling more and identify more with the Boks. I find the match and the result just as bitter as you and nowhere do I excuse the refs incompetence and I am fully aware of how all the consequences it has had on the RC. I count and pay attention to EVERY match against the All Blacks and hope that in my lifetime we will surpass them in the head to head stakes in the modern era – now 29 to 12 in the AB’s favour. Every loss and consequently every widening of that gap means an awful lot to me.
Venting our anger is good and necessary. Lets just vent it more constructively and realistically where we can gather the most sympathy to our cause. It doesn’t help offending and insulting the rest of the world and then expect them to back us. We have to channel our anger in the right and most productive direction and claim the high ground.
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