BJ Botha, Frans Steyn, Jean de Villiers, Butch James, Joe van Niekerk, Shaun Sowerby, Marius Joubert, Luke Watson, Daan Human, Faan Rautenbach, Brent Russel, Neil de Kock, Michael Claasens, CJ van der Linde, Robbie Diack, Ross Skeate, Gcobani Bobo, Schalk Brits, Ernst Joubert, Marco Wentzel, Jacques Cronje and countless other lesser known players.
Week in and week out we have to hear the constant muttering and moaning of SA Rugby fans, “Oh if only this and this player came back, oh what are we going to do now that this player is playing overseas? Why can’t Peter de Villiers just select the overseas guys? All our talent is playing overseas because of quotas. “
Bullshit…say I!!!
Around 352 professional rugby players ply their trade on a weekly basis Super 14 and Vodacom Cup action for South Africa, this excludes the various injured players watching from the sidelines, the players not in the match 22, the age-group players and even the Varsity Cup players.
Think about this, only considering players in the match 22’s, it is approximately (read well, APPROXIMATELY):
62 Props,
32 Hookers,
48 Locks,
56 Looseforwards,
24 Scrumhalves,
22 Flyhalves,
40 Centres
68 Outside Backs.
Are we seriously saying, that nowhere in the whole country, are we able to identify and develop a youngster, to grow into a position of influence on the field? Within an array of 62 front-rowers, we do not have the ability to develop even one into an international star? Are we actually trying? Or are we only trying to take the easy way out?
To even consider using overseas based players is an insult to every registered rugby player in South Africa, from school level up. There is absolutely no position in which we do not have a better local player than an overseas based one, (Inside Centre might be the exception, but not for long).
SARU needs to have a look at their structures, and whether they are doing enough to develop existing talent. The Scrum Factory is step in the right direction, but why not go even further?
Establish a National High Performance Rugby Academy. Invite at least 60 of the most promising talents from around SA to join the Academy under the tutorship of a number of professional coaches and conditioning experts appointed by SARU. Get them to hone raw talent into actual rugby players, get them into the mindset of the life of a professional rugby player.
Now, introduce a drafting system, whereby each franchise has the opportunity to approach these players and offer them junior contracts with the union. Obviously a transfer fee will be paid to the Academy, which will be one way of funding it. The junior contracts are to be equal in size, in other words, a financially powerful union, will pay the same as a smaller one, and each union can only approach a set number of players.
In this way you can ensure that talent is divided equally amongst the franchises, and that all franchises are benefitting and have an opportunity, to develop their sides. As this will be a South African initiative, a number of strong franchises is in the interest of SA Rugby as a whole.
Once a year, make available a transfer window, where unions get the opportunity to approach a number these junior players from each other’s unions, for senior contracts. However, here is the catch, a union cannot merely buy a player to get him off the market and add to its depth. A buy should coincide with actual game time in the senior set-up, as per contractual arrangement, and not just hanging around with the juniors waiting for injuries to make the step up.
It might be a pie in the sky dream, but I believe a move like this, will ensure that rugby in SA stays fresh, and that talent isn’t slipping through the cracks unnecessarily.
So by all means, a player can play where he wants, for whom he wants, for as long as he wants, because South Africa will be developing their replacements, and returning would not be as easy as once thought.
It is a topic we visited often in the past.
I am not sure if you guys are more concerned about the overseas players or the structures in SA Rugby.
From my point of view, the problem with losing players to overseas clubs will take care of itself once the structures if SA Rugby are sorted.
The structural problems in SA rugby are very complex – the main issue currently is that amateur arms largely controls unions, and effectively SA Rugby with the capability or ability to make very important decisions – where this should be best served if it is shifted to the commercial arm.
We cannot do without the other, but the balance is currently wrong.
Rugby needs its amateur arm as much as its professional arm.
Personally I would like out top professional structures to be far removed from union involvement or management.
Meaning our current 5 regions (5 current Super 14 regions plus the Eastern Cape or keep it 5 and merge Lions and Bulls as the Gauteng region) being established as ‘largely’ independent franchises – acting as mini SA Rugby’s over their own regions. They will be responsible enlarge for running each union in their region, and all the levels down from union (club, school etc.).
This will include development, transformation and all responsibilities commercially and socially in rugby.
Unions will be the major feeding sources for franchises in each region, but SA Rugby to control the competition (Super rugby and Boks rugby) and the management thereof – like implementation of a draft system for instance and a central Bok contracting system.
Franchises bid for cities in their regions as their base, make use of existing (and pay relevant fees/rent) or buy/build new stadiums, academies etc.
We can then continue to debate whether franchises should be listed, offer investment opportunities etc.
Effectively they will be major corporations in each of our major regions in SA, subject to laws and responsibilities of our country but ultimately, still only sporting or rugby franchises.
Once can even expand this further, and include other codes of sport within these ‘corporations’ to promote sport, like cricket, soccer, hockey etc. etc.
Importantly, give power to those who know what to do with it and make it successful.
31@ Morne – Merge the Bulls and the Lions…. that’s where I lost all interest…. sorry, but that’s a kak idea.
Gauteng sits with more than 50% of the Country’s population…. and you want it’s 2 distinctive Franchises merged…. nonsense, bulldust, twaddle!
Fark, the Stormers would go to any lenghts to weaken the Bulls….. if they could.
Ahhhh GBS, you make yourself guilty of exactly what I say and what is wrong about SA Rugby…
It is union first, and everything else after.
Remove franchises from unions – that is my first point because SA Rugby is a fuckup because it is not.
Franchise being union independent does not mean the unions will not exist anymore – unions has a vital role to play in rugby in SA.
As soon as one mention how useless and stupid it is to have two franchises, not 80 km’s from one another supporters jump on their horses claiming one could never ‘merge’ the Lions and Bulls.
I never said merge the Lions and the Bulls as unions, I am saying create a franchise to control both unions, same as a franchise would control Cheetahs, Griffons and Griquas.
You still have your precious Bulls but as a franchise, in a region with the biggest GDP in SA, a massive rugby presence the Gauteng franchise will be unstoppable.
The franchise bids to play or make their home base either at Coke Park, or Loftus, or build a new bloody stadium in Midrand – personally I could not give a toss as long as they create a rugby empire.
The best of the Bulls, and Lions, and all other unions and teams to be represented in this region to play for this franchise.
As will or I propose be the case in all other regions.
Your precious Bulls, or Saint’s precious WP still exist, play in their respective Currie Cup and VC Cup competitions, feed the franchise and you can still have a dick measuring contest to argue who has the best Currie Cup record…
But we develop a professional tier of no less than 150 (5 regions) or 180 (6 regions) professional players from which we pick our Bok team.
#33
Morne, I think the idea would be great, was it not for the absolute animosity built up through the years. But all in all, should the Bulls and the Lions merge, I’d bet anything they’d still play in Blue at Loftus, because I watched the Lions games…they can’t have more than 72 supporters.
33@ Morne – Your argument regarding proximity, 50km not 80km, does not hold water…. like I said, you want to group over 50% of the population into one Region and the 4 other Regions, who in total make up less than 50% of the population you want to devide into 4 seperate Franchises??
No seriously, that is just fattup, from a population distribution perspective!
Make the Regions City bound, connected to the 6 biggest Metropoles…. Johannesburg, Pretoria, Cape Town, Durban, Bloemfontein and Port Elizabeth….. ah but wait, it already is… someone actually had brains, in stead of a tor on a cork!
There is no way that it is needed to have less than 6 SEPERATE Structures, why only 5…. why the need to merge anything…. there are other alternatives, relegation is but one…. Expanded Competition Structures is another, getting our talent back from overseas is yet another…..
Of course Union Support is important and paramount…. that is what has created the Strong and Differing Brands…. yip, that is right, the Bulls is a Brand…. one of the Strongest Sporting brands around!
The Bulls already manage to win Super 14’s, no need to add the Lions to the Bulls…. make the Lions strong as they should be again…. we have the populace for 2 or more independent strong Francises here in Gauteng….
Yip, do the central draft thing…. hell, there are lots of ways to kill a cat other than to merge 50% of the population into one structure….
In the end its all about $$$$$$$$$.
In the USA, gridiron franchises would actually swop cities depending on what each city offered them. Unfortunately SA doesn’t have too much of what can truly be called cities.
50% of the population is in Gauteng?
While I am not going to dispute population figures let’s just make this simple GBS…
Of the 50% of the population you claim to have in Gauteng, how many play and support rugby?
How many clubs and active rugby schools, and playing numbers do you have in Gauteng?
You might have 23 million people in Gauteng but if only 500 000 support and play the game your 50% stat means nothing. So your argument in fact holds little water cause I happen to know how many clubs you have in Gauteng and could easily compare them to the rest of the country.
That is my first point.
Second point.
Franchise ARE NOT, read, NOT city bound – it is union bound and part and parcel of the reason why the structures in SA rugby especially at Super rugby level is such a god damn mess.
It is easy to shout from the terraces now being a Bulls supporter because you have done so well in the last 6 years, but not 8 years ago for 4 years running the Bulls could not buy a top half finish in the log – and that cycle of once great, and then poor is exactly what we must look to stop, and it is called professionalism and professional structures.
Oddly enough, in 2000 and 2001 the Lions made semi’s and finals and the Bulls were pretty much where the Lions are and I can only wonder what Lions supporters would have said back then if I made the same suggestion – probably the same you are right now.
But that is besides the point.
The Super rugby competition in SA is based on REGIONAL franchises, not city-based franchises – if it was lets just drop this bullshit and let WP, Blue Bulls etc. play Super rugby.
If we want to continue to have it as REGIONALLY based franchises then let’s do it properly.
JHB and PTA are not regions, they are almost one city now in anycase.
And lastly, you again, typically go back to the ‘Bulls’ history…
We have won so many of this, so many of that, why would we want to merge with anyone… blah blah blah.
My suggestion has nothing to do with the Bulls, I DO NOT CARE HOW MUCH YOU HAVE WON OF WHAT, as much as I do not care how kak you were only 8 years ago.
The Bulls, along with every other of the remaining 13 unions in SA will remain (yes there are 13 other unions in SA too believe it or not) as they are now.
What we create, is a professional, regional franchise based system, with the aim of developing and retaining the best rugby talent in the country, in all regions, independently, for the benefit of SPRINGBOK rugby (not Bulls or WP rugby).
36@ Saint – $$$$$$$$ is connected to location and infrastructure…. how much Big Business is around them, how big is the populace or potential supporter base to support the Brand and the sport….
That is why it has to be roughly devided in SA according to populace, not according to geographic proximity.
Take other Examples…. of Franchises in Close proximity, yet they are successful and powerful…. Manchester’s distinctive Soccer Franchises, London’s differing Rugby Entities….. et cettera, et cettera…
And dammit, don’t underestimate Brand awareness… and the Power of established Brands.
Would it be fair to say merge the 2 Coastal Franchises in SA…. no….. YOU want the SHARKS and you want the STORMERS seperate…. because of the individual strenghts of the established BRANDS!!
If everything was purely city and/or town based, then Stellenbosch would be a major player in this country…
37@ Morne – Why waste time…. read # 38…. and go merge somewhere else….
#38
Actually I want WP to play in the Super 14 and not the Stormer scam…I mean honestly, we had Bolla Conradie on the bench once this year…the only Boland representative, who are we trying to kid, with the exception of the Lions and the Cheetahs, the other 3 SA Brands does bugger-all to promote the teams in the franchise, it’s basically WP, the Blue Bulls and the Sharks. If a player comes from elsewhere before the competition, he sure as hell isn’t going back there afterwards.
#38
Just to be fair GBS, London and Manchester are true cities, where some guys from the eastside, doesn’t even go to the westside their entire lives. People in different areas of London actually have different accents. Then I am not even talking about the difference in economic stability and population density. There’s actually no comparison to be made if you are honest.
41@ Saint – In other words you are Brand sensitive…. and rightly so…
Yip, make it the Blue Bulls (Bulls = same thing), Sharks, Cheetahs, WP (Stormers – same thing), Lions (Golden Lions = same thing) and the Kings or Spears (Eastern Cape & PE = same thing).
Apart from the Kings / Spears, the rest are established Brands… and we saw before a merge between the Lions and Cheetahs never worked and there was division of all sorts, it will be no different with a different merge.
As far as the Eastern Cape is concerned, to splice together a working Brand, will be tough…. for that Brand to be effective, the Franchise needs to be effective and representative of the region…. and above all perceived to be good enough to warrant continued support…
Are you actually reading what you are writing?
You are right though, comparing Manchester City to Manchester United is a bit like comparing the Bulls and Lions franchises…
The one is uber kak and the other good.
When, in the professional era of rugby, has both the Lions and Bulls simultaneously been powerhouses of SA Rugby?
Also, who wants to merge the Stormers and the Sharks?
You are contradicting yourself as far as you go, there is no proximity, economic, social or rugby reason to do this?
It is exactly the same reason the Cats franchise failed with merging the Cheetahs and Lions – it is bloody daft. But I read again how some people suggest this happen again…
I believe you should take some time out and read what I said – the Bulls brand, together with all other 13 unions will remain – the structures within they operate professionally will change.
You will not lose your supporter base, you will not lose your brands, you will not lose money (in fact we might actually make some and not have 12 of our 14 unions bankrupt).
But go ahead, carry on as we have been for the last 100 years because history is so bloody important even if it means that the walls are coming crashing down around you but we are too bloody blind to see it because all that matters is Blue, or Blue and white hoops, and our great yet flawed amateur history in rugby.
Morne
Are you involved with WP Rugby?
42@ Saint – Joburg and Pretoria is the same, friend…. hell there is a cultural difference which is palpable….
It still remains SA’s biggest Cities, both of them….. so it’s still a valid analogy…. and Gauteng and Immediate surrounds still reflects the majority of SA’s population….
Not professionally or on their payroll
#46
Pretoria-Oos en Pretoria-Wes, Centurion en Pretoria-Noord, almal Bloubulle almal flokken kommin…hehehe
44@ Morne – Are you actually reading and understanding what you’re writing?
Just because it does not affect you as WP / Stormer oke does not make the Bulls / Lions merge right… or fair or the only solution because Morne SAYS IT WILL BE SO!
You seriously understand very little….
#47
But I guess in a much closer capacity than merely a spectator, only a full-blooded WP-man can get so negative against WP, even though I sense that it is aimed rather at the management structures than the team itself.
GBS,
English soccer does not have a regionally based franchise system – comparing apples and pears.
Promotion and relegation based system with multiple tiers.
A system proven not to work in SA Rugby, as the promoted team will 99% of the time be the demoted team in a year’s time.
SA Rugby teams unlike English soccer teams are not privately owned – we do not compete in a world market for players, are not fully professional so we cannot hope to employ the same system.
There is just no way a recently promoted Pumas can afford to buy the best rugby players in SA to entrench themselves in the Currie Cup propper, let alone buy overseas based players (the type of market the English soccer clubs operate in).
A promotion/relegation system in SA rugby is useless.
48@ Saint – Komende van ‘n inwoner van Steenkoolmyn besoedelde aarde is dit ryk….. hehehe
Daar’s Kommin oral…. in Brakkenjanpan, in Ermelo en Ogies en Witbank, in Parow en Bellville, in Slaapstad, Joburg, Blingfontein en Deben by the sea.
In elke dorp of streek is daar die goeie mense ook…. behalwe miskien in Witbank aka Mordor….. hehehe
#52
AHA!!!! Uitgevang…nee ou maat ek kom nie naby ‘n myn nie. En Witbank is ‘n moer nice plek, solank jy in jou huis bly en nie met die ander mense meng nie.
No see GBS this is what you do not see.
According to you I am writing this as a Stormers supporter to screw over the Bulls.
Until you can look past that, there is no use and you will never see what I suggest and that my only motivation is for the promotion of rugby in South Africa as a whole, not just for one union.
Strange though, the only reason you defend this is because to your mind you are defending the Bulle, and their tradisie and history…
I have said this many times so do not take this personally because of the above context of the debate;
The small-mindedness of SA Rugby supporters is exactly why 11 of 13 unions in South Africa is in so much shit.
There is no collective mindset in this country, it is each in his little corner protecting his pride and tradition and if the rest fails, then it is a case of ‘oh well’. At least the Bulls, WP, Sharks are okay still.
#51
Now THAT is true.
But I heard Johan Rupert (who is an avid WP supporter) say, that a rugby-franchise is simply not worth the investment. The return is too little. Interesting ne?
I will use the example of the current MD or whatever of the Kings franchise in the Eastern Cape.
Recently he came out and stated SA Rugby is unfairly stalling the development and establishment of the Kings in order to protect the current franchises.
The strange thing about this individual, is that when the Kings were known as the Spears, he was working at the Bulls, and he was instrumental in blocking the promotion of the then Spears to Super rugby status…
But ja, the more things change I suppose.
51@ Morne – Merging as you suggest “is so uit soos koekies in die weeshuis, trek af en plak toe”… that kite won’t fly!
In stead of a merge…. let’s move to Private Ownership….
In stead of a merge…. repair what’s gone wrong at the Lions…. they’re sitting on a gold mine… pun intended.
In stead of a merge…. broaden Super Structures or make the playing field more level with a centralised draft….
There are other options than a merge… far more viable ones….. commercially, financially and from a rugby perspective… oh and definately from a Brand perspective….
#57
As I just said Mr. Rupert feels that private ownership is not viable, the Lions will never get fixed unless they sack everyone involved, as for the centralized draft, yip I like that because it is partially an idea of mine.
SESHONDERD!!!!!!
GBS forget f$%&(@ merge!!!
I have said from the start, create a brand new regional franchise to manage all the unions in the region it is responsible for!!!
A mini-SA Rugby in each major region in SA, who operate independently from unions or SA rugby but are ultimately responsibility for the rugby collective of that region.
This ‘Gauteng’ franchise will be responsible for the Lions, the Bulls, Valke and whoever falls under Gauteng – their (union) feeder structures, management (day-to-day), transformation, development, etc. etc. etc.
The Bulls, Lions, Valke and whoever else will remain!
Same as SWD, Boland, WP, Border, Cheetahs and all the other unions will remain under their regional franchise…
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